I'm Still Not A Mrs.: Comment Round-up
Friday’s post on my decision not to take my husband’s name elicited over 400 comments. Many people felt that I was too judgmental to those who changed their name, and that distorted my entire post. Women and men weighed in on both sides of the debate – explaining their personal and political reasons for keeping or changing their name. The debate took on a life of it’s own as it got re-posted on other sites and elicited comments from as far as Guyana and Japan.
It is obvious that this topic touches a chord, one that highlights a discomfort with the changes in women’s traditional roles in marriage and how we as a society choose to deal with choices that are often rooted in a sexist past. Some people will disagree, saying that this topic has nothing to do with tradition but only with the future of two people united in marriage.
I have rounded up what I think are the most cogent comments on both side of the debate. These posts drove the discussion onwards, they don’t mince words and they don’t call me or my husband nasty names. To see the whole discussion, check out my original post – I am Not a Mrs.
Keep reading to see what people had to say on both sides of the debate. (In some cases, comments have been edited for brevity):
Disagreed:
Roxanne:
I couldn't change my name when I married but I wanted to. Not because my husband owns me, but because for me it's a symbol of the CHOICE I am making to be a family. It wouldn't change who I am... It's just a name, and I hate being the odd one out. I definitely have lost respect for you, for being so judgemental.
Susan:
This irrational and baseless fear of the "patriarchy" is so last century. One problem with Emma's insistence on clinging to her last name and intolerantly disrespecting anyone who doesn't fall into her own personal pigeon cote is that she obviously kept her maiden name, which was surely her father's last name, and thus a part of the dreaded "patriarchy". Of course she could have chosen her mothers' maiden name as her last name, but ooops, there's the "patriarchy" again, as Emma's mother doubtless bore the last name of HER father. And what will Emma's children be called? The "patriarchal" last name of Emma's husband, or the "patriarchal" last name of Emma's father, or the "patriarchal" last name of Emma's mother's father? What of their children? Eventually you run out of space for the hyphenation of multiple dozens of names of people who want to retain their names, and you have to pick one. It's just easier to pick the name of the man you married, Emma. Think of it as a necessary but evil social convenience if you must.
Dentrh:
Ms Waverman, it is unfair to make value judgements about people you know nothing about. In 1981 when my wife and I got married our vows included nothing about love and honour and obey. We promised faith in each other through good and bad. My wife took my name not because I asked her but because she had a choice as an individual to do what she wanted. I today she wished to called by her family name it remains her choice. Not mine and certainly not yours. Almost twenty-nine years later we are still work daily on making our life together richer. You chose to continue with your family name I don't judge you, please don't judge my wife.
James:
Congratulations on further contributing to the destruction of tradition and family values. Your article speaks volumes of your own selfishness, and shows that in todays day and age marriage isn't really important to you, and alot of other women out there. Its no wonder why marriages barely survive the 5 year mark these days, especially with nonsense pouring into the media such as your little blurb. Taking a mans name is tradition in marriage, it doesn't mean that he "owns" you, its not a submissive thing in any way. It's a tradition, and just another one that is being bastardized by women such as yourself. In my opinion, if you don't want what comes from a marriage, don't get married. I think its very selfish and inconsiderate to your kids and husband to separate yourself from them. So again, thank you for another attack on the values and traditions that many of us hold dear
Rachel:
I think what seems to be lost in this argument (those who are strongly for or against changing their name) is why anyone should care what someone else does with her or his name. My name does not make me, me. My personality and my aspirations do, and I have made the choice to take my Husband’s last name. I can’t say I have ever put much thought into other women’s decisions on the matter, and why should I; it’s a personal choice and not one that defines the amount of respect I give a person. The whole idea of marriage is mutual ownership, whether you take his name or not. Sure, historically the idea is archaic and based on the world of Man, but so is marriage, yet you yourself are married. I say I agree with most of the women that it is a personal choice and should not be judged by those who look down their nose.
Agree but hated my wording:
Holly:
I agree with you about taking your husband's naming being archaic 100% I did not take my husband's name when I married him..... BUT I find it very interesting that you JUDGE ppl admittedly who take their husband's name when you let your children have your husband's name!!! That is the exact same thing! Totally archaic and even worse, the kids don't share your name. I have my last name, my husband has his and our kids have a hyphenated last name a blend of both of our names. Many very conservative countries have the women keep their last names for example in Iran. BUT of course the kids take the husbaand's. So lady, I JUDGE YOU. You are no better then all the women that take their husband's name if your kids have his name!!! What's the difference??
Agreed:
Ms. XYZ:
Sometime ago somebody at work commented that my given name was my father's last name. In response I said that it had to stop at some point and now was as good a time as ever. Feminism is about equal treatment. When systemic and/or social expectations are placed on, or experienced by, an individual because of sex or by extension any of the other prohibited grounds that define human rights, how does that exemplify equality?
ME: (it’s a pseudonym, not me, nor is it anyone I know…)
I love this post, mostly because societies need to have these discussions about values and laws. I agree that it's all about choice, as well as educating society so that they are prepared to accept the outcomes of that choice. It's one thing to legally keep your last name, and it's another to be judged by society on that choice. I kept my own last name for the same reasons though - I didn't want people to think of me in terms of my marital status, I wanted them to think of me as a person - period. I love being married, but I don't want it to define me. Just like the term "mom" - I love being a mom more than anything in the world, but I don't want it to define me - there too many stereotypes and connotations that go along with these labels: Mrs. Mom, Wife. I like just being me.
Maria:
Thank you Emma for such an enlightening blog entry! I agree with you totally. I have to say that the women that are getting so uptight about your blog posting is because I think deep inside they agree with you, but don't want to be seen as weak because they gave in to the name change. I am partnered and kept my name. I am proud of my name. With my name are my ancestors. The people that made me who I am. If you give up your last name, you abandon your ancestors. My partner understands this and respects this. In our partnership, we are giving, and loving and have been together for over 10 years. I heard of a metaphor once that a healthy relationship can be compared to 2 trees with separate roots, but the limbs are entwined. My last name is my root. If I gave it away, a piece of me would be gone. People may argue that I would fill this piece by taking on a caring partner's name and ancestors, but why do I need to give that up? Because I am a woman? People need to be aware that we live in a patriarchal and sexist society still. Feeling pressured to take on a husbands last name is just one example. It may seem trivial to some (because it is just a name), but it can represent and symbolize the bigger picture. Women are still expected to be the givers and to fuel their husbands life etc while sacrificing their own (even if a little).
Alix:
I love reading about women who love their name and what is represents. I am very proud that my mother didn't change her name when she married and that I inherited her surname since I was born a girl. I plan to keep my name as well; for my girls to take my name and my boys to take their fathers. I am also not a "Mrs." - I am a "Ms." It bothers me every time I fill out a form that as a female I must specify my marital status. Men simply use "Mr." Women should simply use "Ms.". This article brings up an important issue - often people follow traditions without considering if it fits with their own ideals and views on life. Thank you for thinking about it, challenging it, and writing about it.
Stephanie:
When people comment that I didn't change my name when I got married I reply that my husband didn't change his, either. If the argument is truly about freedom of choice, then one must ask how many men express this freedom. I haven't met one man yet who changed his last name to his wife's. So the choice itself is on unequal footing.
And an honourable mention goes to Gabe, who totally disagreed with me but did suggest that I change my name to Waverwoman. Love it.
Posted by: Traditionalist | 2010-02-10 2:46:48 PM
I am probably going to open up a whole other can of worms here but...
Dear SYLVIE LACHANCE KEPT MY MAIDEN NAME: I am unsure if you are aware but in North America when divorces happen the MEN are most likely to lose half or more of their property, pay hefty spousal support and if there is children child support. (Not arguing against child support, but it should be within reason and the ex wife should prove that child support is being spent on the children and not on her). Unfortunately, for those of us who do hold marriage sacred, there are a rising number of women out there who get married with the idea that should the marriage fail they hit pay dirt!
I have never met a woman who is paying $1200+ per month over the next 10 years for spousal support. Marriage has become a huge gamble for men. I believe that is what CONCERNED CITIZEN was getting at.
If any feminists want to change something that really matters, look at Family Law and see how "EQUAL" that is.
(and no I am NOT a bitterly divorced man. I am an ecstatic bride to be :)
Posted by: Jane Doe | 2010-02-10 12:32:41 AM
I am not a Miss, Ms. or Mrs.
I can remember receiving an invitation from a government office and they wanted to know what designation - Miss, Ms. or Mrs. to use, insisting that a proper invitation should have the proper designation. I insisted that the proper designation for men is Mr. whereas for women it is Miss, Ms. or Mrs. Why should it matter to anyone whether I am married, single, divorced, common-law, re-married, re-married again, etc. In the end, I told them that my preference was for them to use my name as it is without the title.
I generally don't check off the tick boxes indicating Miss, Ms. or Mrs.
I'm all for coming up with my own 'title' such as Mz or Mxx or Mxz .
Posted by: Ian | 2010-02-10 12:08:34 AM
If you feel you would lose your ancesters, and therefore retain your original family name, are you not losing you maternal ancesters? If you use both your family name and your husband's for your children, then what will their generation do, Smith-Jones will marry Doe-Bull, what on earth will their children be called. So at some point you have to stop the nonsense and maybe take on the name "X" maybe your children can take the name "Y". Unfortunately you would only have 24 names for the whole world. G'day
Posted by: Jane Doe | 2010-02-10 12:05:11 AM
Real men don't feel threatened or emasculated if a woman chooses to keep her maiden name.
Does it make men feel more powerful and more in control if a woman defers to his wishes & submits to his demands?
If men are going to get all crybaby about a woman taking or not taking their name, in my opinion that sends a strong signal/red flag as to their true state of mind surrounding dominance issues.
Posted by: Ainsley | 2010-02-09 11:29:28 PM
The reality of the situation is that people like traditions - they make them "feel good". I remember being a kid and asking my mom why there were no female ministers at our church - my sister shot back at me saying "Female ministers!! I wouldn't like that! It wouldn't look right!". My mom whole heartedly agreed - "Thats just the way it is, its part of our religious tradition".
This is the ground that the argument for changing ones last name rests on - really there isn't a good reason - its "just the way it goes" - those words couldn't be more sad and apathetic and I despise when they are used to defend any argument. It just makes people uncomfortable for women to go against this tradition and thats the truth. Why not have a man change his last name? Well that would cause a huge uproar! Why ? Because in the end it is a submissive tradition and a man would not want to be part of that. Regardless of whether or not it matters to you this "tradition" like most of them, does not make any sense - people just accept them cause they make them feel good and everyone else does it so they just follow along - don't dare to be different! People might judge you and gossip about you behind your back! The traditions associated with marriage never appealed to me - a big white dress and spending a small fortune on one night. I'd rather be with someone I love and just forget the whole thing altogether - we can exchange our vows at city hall and have a party in my back yard for all I care. I am keeping my last name.
Posted by: TT | 2010-02-09 11:07:11 PM
Really? This is a topic of discussion? Wow, where does this all end?
Flash forward to the year 2210 (If the world lasts that long) where Melissa Johnson-Smith-Jones-Gomez-Williams-Ramirez-Goldstein-Abramowitz-Green-Lee-Sampson-Goldstein wants to apply for a credit card and she is issued a card the size of a sheet of plywood! My prediction, purses will get bigger!
Posted by: Joanne | 2010-02-09 10:26:03 PM
Is it my imagination or is there something puerile, almost ignorant about this author's writing? It strikes me as being written by someone who really hasn't had a lot of real issues to worry about in life. I would be willing to wager that in her household her husband is the breadwinner, by a huge margin, that he holds the door open for her, and that this writing thing is her cute little hobby. I'd further bet she has a nanny for her kids, goes to the spa, and had a pretty privileged upbringing. How come lower income people never get involved in these debates? ....because they have more important things to worry about!!!!!!! Please, who is allowing this Waverman to publish this high school level drivel??
Posted by: Sylvie Lachance Kept maiden name | 2010-02-09 9:53:09 PM
Dear concern citizen, please tell us all what men give up when they get married?What is your compromise? None ! I thought so! Stay single my sisters and you will never have to pick up dirty socks!
Posted by: Mary | 2010-02-09 9:51:51 PM
I find this to be an interesting debate. When I married I took my husband's surname so that everyone in the home would have the same name. Later I divorced that man and remarried. Again I took my husband's name. It seemed ridiculous to retain my ex's surname (even though I like it better) and equally ridiculous to revert to my maiden name which none of my current friends/ coworkers ever knew. Now I find that I'm dealing with an aging parent with Alzheimer's who doesn't remember my FIRST name............. and I am not bothered because through it all, I know who I am.
Posted by: Brian | 2010-02-09 9:49:25 PM
To me the strangest choice are the people who use both last names. First time makes for a long name but what about the next generation. As well the potential for mail delivery problems , confusion on billing or any other legal documentation.
Posted by: Lin | 2010-02-09 9:47:42 PM
Changing your name isn't sexism. Not being allowed to make your own choices is.
Posted by: W | 2010-02-09 9:39:14 PM
It's really quite simple. A woman takes a man's last name so as not to confuse their future grandchildren when they begin dating. If my brother's grandchildren(West coast) are Johnson's and my grandchildren(East coast) are Sampson's(wife's name), then our grandchildren may run into each other some day at college and have some inbred kids.
Stop inbreeding now!
Posted by: HALEN | 2010-02-09 9:29:48 PM
Jesus..Really still go burn your bra`s and stop shaving your arm pits and legs who cares yous will die alone with many cats who love oops i mean depend upon you with the slave name you give them..
Grow up..
Seriously Feminism needs to die equality is one thing but feminazis like this no longer speak for the many woman around the world woman have the vote the right to work or not to work you dont see men rising up to protect the little bitch boys these woman marry who are to afraid to speak for them selves..
I mean lets face it if we did have a woman elected to run the country all the country would stop one week a month because she was to bitchy to be diplomatic and to emotional to direct her troops to war when needed..=)
Stop the bull shit period EQUALITY means everyone is equal personal choice is just that a PERSONal choice no one should have the right to belittle anothers choice..
Its as bad as the anti smoking nazis yous got your way...enjoy the lack of funding in healthcare transit road repairs etc etc etc oh and them sky rocketing property taxes to recover the lost income!
Your opinion means nothing to no one but yourself.
Posted by: A | 2010-02-09 8:51:38 PM
This is a fantastic subject and a great debate!
I am closing in on a time when I'm going to have to choose what I want to do, and believe me it's been a difficult choice, my thoughts have ranged along the lines of almost every one who has posted (except the judgmental posts, and the ones in the very extreme!)
My partner told me he always dreamed of his wife taking his name, as to him it was an act of love, acceptance and embracing him and our life together.
For me, I always dreamed of a partner open and comfortable enough to take a hyphenated version of both our names.
We have met at a clash of dreams...what do you do?
My strong mother told me that she always regretted taking my father's name and after they divorced it felt like coming home, taking back her maiden name.
I don't feel strongly about my name, in fact I could go without it as i feel it does not signify who I am, nor does it connect me to my roots. Those things go beyond words and can not be defined by them. Words are too small, in my opinion.
I don't want to take his name completely, because of the history of subjugation, but the tradition that has arisen past the history of where it came from is so beautiful. I love what marriage and weddings have become, they have far surpassed the time when women were chattel. I think that needs to be honored, and that perhaps the way we change our names need to be honored as well. But that is simply my opinion and to anyone who finds the tradition of taking her husband's name empowering, or a beautiful symbol of your love, I honor you in that.
I wish it could be that simple for me!
Tradition and ritual are important...names are not as much. I believe this debate is about the anger felt by women at what our roles have been in the past, and the angst of men who can not understand that deep and enduring rage passed down from generation to generation. But you can not heal that with more anger and intolerance. You need to reach down into the pain and understand where it came from, and let it go. Then these debates will not be so heated!
Peace!
Posted by: Sheri | 2010-02-09 8:50:21 PM
Someone named Adam commented about women wanting the ring and the house and all the rest, but won't change their names. I had to laugh because I'm the woman who did propose...well, there was never an official proposal, actually...but I started the discussion and I was the one to finally say "What do you think? Should we get married?" and he said yes. I absolutely didn't want an engagement ring, although I did realize a while later that I would like some kind of token to mark the engagement, so we went out together and bought a $70 diamond earring for my left ear. I even had to get a new hole put in to wear it. :)
As for all the other stuff (house, half the money, etc.), I also happen to make 3x what my husband was making. After my maternity leave was over, I went back to work and he's been a stay at home dad for 2 and a half years. It's a situation that's working really well for us and I love it this way. He's contributing to the household just as much as I am, if not more. Everything is OURS.
The funny thing is, even though I didn't change my name when we got married, I'm still considering it. I'd like to have the same last name as our daughter, and to be honest I like his last name better than mine anyway. The important point is that I can CHOOSE what I want to do, just like other women. The choice is what counts...and I think we should respect each other whatever those choices might be.
Posted by: Barcham | 2010-02-09 8:44:18 PM
To Maria who posted about not wanting to lose the name her ancestors gave her...I hope you realize that if any one of the women in your family's history had made the same decision as you, the ancestry and historical name that you are so dearly 'protecting' would be a different one. So that totally invalidates your logic.
For all who are in favour of hyphenated names, where does it end? Do you continue to the point where the family name of your descendants will take half a page to write? I can just imagine the insanity of personal and corporate e-mail addresses.
Taking the husband's name is traditional in our society. If you make a different choice, so be it. That is your right, in most places anyways, in Quebec you don't even have the choice to take your husband's name as it is prohibited by law. But don't attack those who wish to keep that tradition proudly and with honour. If you don't want others to criticize you for your choice, maybe you should start by not criticizing others for theirs.
Posted by: Jane Doe | 2010-02-09 8:35:19 PM
John, I think you should crawl back into your cave.
Gals: Do you want to marry the likes of these men?
Better single than trapped in marriage with one of these old-fashioned, old school die-hards.
I would never have settled for the likes of any man with such a fragile ego.
Be forewarned.
Posted by: Elaine | 2010-02-09 8:33:50 PM
I am pro-choice in this debate but I must admit I don't understand why anyone (male or female) would WANT to change his or her name. It's a part of who I am, where I've been, and an integral part of the email address I've had for nearly 15 years. When I married we considered either both hyphenating our names, keeping my name or having a wedding day coin toss where we would take the winning spouse's name. Well, both my husband and I have unusual last names that most people can't pronounce or spell correctly and by hyphenating we would each have 19 characters in our names - yeah, so no hyphenating. My husband didn't want to chance having to change his name and so I kept mine. However, when I send out emails and such from the both of us I use a single name made up of a combination of both of our last names.
As for children, we have yet to be blessed but I still can't bear the thought of carrying on patriarchal tradition and just automatically giving them my husband's last name (sorry but "it's tradition, live with it" is not a valid reason to keep doing something so obviously sexist and pointless). At this point the best compromise we can think of is to go by the sex of the first child. If it's a girl, she and all subsequent children will have my last name, a boy his. The other option was to give all girls my last name, and all boys his, but that seemed like it could be really confusing. My mother-in-law didn't appreciate it when I told her the plan as my husband is the only one to carry on the family name, but considering the fact my husband has her maiden name (his father was never in the picture) I really don't think it's a valid argument. However, should my husband reconsider the matter once there are actual and not hypothetical children involved I have informed him that all children will be named after me (they're all going to be named after him after all).
Posted by: Derek | 2010-02-09 8:20:57 PM
I believe in choice. But, I also believe in tradition. So I'm kind of conflicted I guess. But I would like my wife to carry my name. And if she does not want to, that's fine too. But in that whole line of thought, it should be fine for me to change my name to Bond James Bond, or Santa Clause, or God Almighty. After all, they are just a name and not a personal reflection of who I am, right? I actually enjoy debate, and this is a big one. My fiance wants to keep her name, fine, but she is tottally against me changing my name to God Almighty or Frosty the Snowman. Why is choice for some ok, but not for others, if it is "just a name". I think what it really boils down to here is control. And I admit that the feminists have a point. But what about tradition? We still celebrate holidays, and some might so those were passed down by men. Should we change the dates, meanings and signifigence based on the sex aspect? People, do what you want. We are free to make choices, and they have consequences. But acceptance is what we all need to learn. As for my fiance and I, if she chooses to keep her name, I'm gonna make a new one for me. Afterall, change is good.
Posted by: JK | 2010-02-09 8:07:50 PM
Well there is apparently only people that were raised by their biological family in this debate. All this hype about a name...your dad's your mom's your name....blah blah blah....I guess I should get some therapy...because evidently I am no one, as my birth name in it's entirieity (1st middle and last) was changed as an infant to the name my adoptive parents wanted me to have....along with that went my cultural background, genetic history, and everything that ever was before the day parents took custody of me ( that includes the story of my birth, possibility of inheridited disease...EVERYTHING). On second thought I am the only person so far in this waste of time discussion that can truly say I am who I am from my own creation, not something I passively aquired by accident of being born! It is just a freaking word....get over yourselves.
Posted by: Deb | 2010-02-09 8:05:48 PM
I had to comment back to Josh.... Quite humorous... imagine the phone book in 8 generations! and the poor little buggars in kindergarten trying to learn to spell thier names! The family tree will be a nightmare...
and I wanted to say that I myself kept my maiden name, my children have their fathers name and as I look back now (being divorced from their father for more than 10 years) that I really just hated his last name! and I would have been embarrassed to say it was mine. I regret my children taking it because they get teased endlessly in school.
In my current relationship I look forward to taking my future husbands name once we marry... because I LIKE HIS NAME!
and he commands the same respect and integrity as my own father, something my ex-husband never did. Mostly I like his name!
Posted by: Traditionalist | 2010-02-09 7:59:00 PM
I should point out that I am pro choice in this matter, but your decision should be based on reasons that respect your commitment to each other.
Prior to one of my friend's wedding when this subject arose, she stated that she is keeping her name. Why? So that she does not have to pay twice to get her name changed if/when the marriage fails. Call me traditional, but I was shocked at her reasoning.
If you are marrying someone you should not be banking on getting a divorce.
I guess it is because of my own traditional ways that I greatly agree with Concerned Citizen. In a society where divorce is rampant and marriage vows no longer seem to be valid, taking your husband's name is a small (and loving) gesture that shows your commitment to your marriage.
This is why when I am married this fall, I will be changing my name to my husbands. I believe it will say to all who know us, that I take my vows seriously and I am going to be with him "until death do us part".
Also, Ms Waverman (and anyone else that wants to look down on me) I do not care if you lose respect for me due to my decision.
I do not need your respect, I need my husband's.
Posted by: Shay | 2010-02-09 7:51:45 PM
The fact that this has gotten such responses is beyond me. In a society when women want to be treated as equals, we forget the true values and roots of marriage. If it is that important to you as an individual to keep your name because it cements your identity, then do it. A name is a name, my sister recently had a daughter and does not want her father's name attached to her daughter, so she named her our family name. She used our father's name, and my mother's grandmother's first name, so she is a perfect blend of our family's history. Myself, on the other hand, I am very excited to one day take someone else's name. To take my husband's name would be an honor. Marriage is about making a life together, mutual respect, admiration and most of all love why are we forgetting about those issues because of a name??? I know I don't want to ever hear the question, "mommy why isn't your name and daddy's the same"
Posted by: Just me | 2010-02-09 7:46:58 PM
Well you make a good point, with the ring and all. And as for half your house etc, if you she works, takes care of your kids, takes care of your house does she not deserve something for her efforts?? I believe it is a joint effort, Its only a last name, and if she makes the choice of keeping her last name is that not her choice?
Posted by: John | 2010-02-09 7:45:27 PM
Guys, do you want to marry the likes of these women? Better single than trapped by one of these modern liberated vipers. There is no happiness nor sense of fulfillment after so ensnared. I've been married for 25 years with 7 kids and 2 grandkids and if I didn't happen upon my wonderful wife, I would never have settled for the likes of these. Be forewarned.